Is 10 to 23 eur / hour a correct average IT rate in romania ?

salarii

(John Jhon) #61

that’s the definition of an employee :slight_smile:
(except some other benefits for the employee: vacantion time, some laws to protect him, etc).

as am i (just not quite nomad) :slight_smile:


(Davask) #62

Based on cashit and biz for a Software developer freelancer in Romania paying his business (25%) and personal taxes (21%) my analysis so far his :

  • junior 2 years experience : 16 euros gross / hour
  • junior 10 years experience : 25 euros gross / hour

this is an average the min max for junior are 10 to 21 and for senior 17 to 30.

Now a little angel gave me a little bit more insights from what looks like salaries in your country and I have now a second range which is much closer to my intial calculation where a junior could get at low as 6 eur/hour and a senior 10 years 23 eur / hour.

What do you think ?


(Davask) #63

you forgot that part which is not part of employee contract. Do not cut what I m saying


(John Jhon) #64

that’s part-time job or flexible hours job.
also an employee, not a freelancer for this part. :slight_smile:

please don’t get me wrong: i am not against your point of view, i just translate it using my general understanding of things.


(Davask) #65

Yep, but you are saying that my approach is part time / salary approach, you could says that or sees a company that do not want to bind you to a local contract cause IF (big if) I m able to go as far as I want and depending on a bunch of parameters, you would tell me : hey I m going to Hong Kong and lives their for 5 years can you provide constant work to me their, and I ll say yes come discuss the details.

And defining where you want to live independently from where your employer/client are is , I think, priceless - but this is very far away in my business development, I need first to consolidate the actual business here


(John Jhon) #66

in other words, you try to provide the business part of a freelancer’s job for him.
the freelancer outsource the client relationship activity to you and remains only with the tech part of his job.
this deals looks and sounds cool, but in my books a freelancer is a business of one… so, a freelancer in no control of his clients it not a freelancer, but an employee (maybe one with a very flexible hours, but still an employee).
it is not wrong to be an employee, what you describe isn’t a freelancer.


(Bogdan Ciubotariu) #67

Try it and see if you find anyone to work for those rates. TBH, I doubt you will find senior freelancers for 23 euro / hour, but who knows…


(Aysun) #68

Lol at this entire thread and this guy trying to find an etiquette price for people delivering services.
When you you need the services of someone and you pay them, they settle the cost of their business and the variable of living cost doesn’t define almost entirely the rate you need to pay. Factors such as experience and portfolio weight much more thank you think.

Lol at the fact that we had a conversion a few months ago where you tried to lowball me because of some bullshit “EU price policy” you were inventing and don’t event get me started on quoting the stuff you wrote in that email, especially the part of how you were trying to decide how much I should receive as upfront payment, while you were the one asking for services. It seems to me you don’t really understand how these things work in business.

Funny how you expect to pay less some people on a forum who speak and write better a second language than 90% of your con-nationals because they live in a different country.


(Adrian) #69

Why not? There are some that are even working for free, just for fun, why wouldn’t they work for some money, even if not a stellar rate?

The secret is in the project. If it’s interesting enough, stuff like that.


(Davask) #70

wrong again, in this case my company would be the client and you would still have to submit your proposals for projects that my company has available, the main difference would be, I garanty a min of hours per month and if you are not able to win bid in the davask network then davask assign you tasks up to your number of hours.
obviously this is in a perfect world and again far away in the futur


(Davask) #71

I can tell you, they exists and they are very good !


(Davask) #72

as said, I don t work with people who do not need me.
And I see a lot of critics here and nothing to up lift the conversation.


(John Jhon) #73
  1. if you are not able to win any task then you should change your job
  2. when you assign a task to a worker that not deserve it… you take some rewards from the skilled and hard worker freelancers to reward the unskilled or lazy ones.
    you will end with a bunch of underskilled and lazy workers and you will not be able to deliver any project => your business will go under.
    ps. some dictators already tried it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

(Davask) #74

clearly, my point is not to develop a free market business, free market do not needs me for anything.
I m trying to make freelancing a career path not something that some people can do and most of us can t.
So for people who are not interested in standards please leave others participate and if you want to participate in building standards with me you are very welcome.
I do not think to have answers to everything but I believe to have good analysis skills and my analysis push me to build a business to stand for the freelance/nomad style of work as today I don t see much in the political area on that topic.
Get me right, if I m wrong I m pleased to be convinced otherwise but keep in mind data is the key and the rest is point of view and saying that I don t mean my point of view is correct, community will decide it.
If I m wrong my business will die.


(Davask) #75

we ll see.
I m not doing communism and I m not crazy at the end I still own a business.
but what you describe concern few people, most of us just want to work, get money, enjoy life.
You are funny, in the good way, most of your comments test the limits of my system.
Please keep going, so far I ve plan all of your worries.


(Georgiana Gligor) #76

I want to make a couple of points, unrelated to each other.

I’ve seen many times this model of putting developers in boxes and paying them accordingly. Unfortunately it’s an abstraction that business people use to make their lives easier, without understanding that it has nothing to do with reality. Additionally, it generates a lot of frustration for the developers that enjoy this type of job, and who disagree with this approach.

I understand that a business person is unable to assess the skills of a technical person. What makes it harder is that developers cannot assess between themselves either. Our profession is not one that can allow quantification, because it’s a combination of passion, skills, intuition, and hard work. If any of these ingredients is missing, the person will not be a good developer, no matter what the heated job market says. Don’t fall in that trap.

Many (10) years ago I freelanced as a technical guide for a NY-based person who was outsourcing everything to traditional outsourcing markets. He taught me the formula that I would need to use to select a bid from freelancing platforms and I had to supervise that person’s work. I would’ve wrote all the code in 1/10 of the time, but no, he and his partner wouldn’t listen to my arguments. I interacted with developers from China, India, Bangladesh, etc. Those were the most horrible 3 months of my life, but I learned very much and I still apply some of those things today. The most important lesson was “there is no formula”.

A bit more from my personal example: 15 years ago, when I started coding, I had a mentor for 1 year, who later became my friend. He gave me tasks and helper pointers every morning, and would check my work in the evenings. I was paid the minimum wage and I was happy I had a job (yes, in Cluj-Napoca). After I absorbed everything I could, I “thanked” him by moving to Timisoara. There I was lucky to have a second mentor, our CTO, who saw something in me and started teaching me application architecture outside of business hours. After 1.5 years I left to be a team lead, and I was more senior than most people I know today that have > 10 years of “experience”. My question to @davask is: what would you offer in terms of money to a person like me at that moment (when the papers said “2.5y experience”)? 5 years ago I’ve worked in Cluj-Napoca with people paid EUR 5000 cash that had no clue what they were doing, but had the years of “experience” and were very sociable and liked by all their colleagues.

I personally trained my current employees, one of them was just passionate about computers and the other one was a Wordpress developer. After 6 months they were working on a mission-critical project, because they had the proper skills.

I congratulate @davask for his entrepreneurial spirit, but I empathise with @Aysun. Because in all these years I learned that matching a person’s skills with the correct project and the right financial agreement is an art, and if it’s done by a non-technical person will be a recipe for disaster.

Let’s not forget that the self-employed Romanian legal form (called PFA) is strictly forbidden to have just one customer. That will be considered masked employment and will be taxed a lot more. From my current experience, the same applies in Belgium, the Netherlands, UK. As a limited company (called SRL) does not have this problem, even if it’s not common business practice. So those self-employed people will need to have clients outside of @davask’s platform, which mostly defeats the purpose.


(Davask) #77

Thanks Tekka to share and uplift that topic with interesting comments
Let s called a cat a cat, today I try to establish the starting point of an algorythm that will handle the different variables which define a rate, but I can not go to deeply today in details cause I m to small for that. for your exemple, what would happen is this : we would start on a rate based on experience and with the time going on we will be talking about your rate which seems unfair to you for the work you do and I would listen try to understand what make a 5 years experience as good as 10 years, establish a new rule that will use facts not opinions, we would agree together on that new rule and we and you would get what is fair for you and I ll pay what is fair for me.


(Davask) #78

second point, @davask company does not goal to be your only contractor, I see more my company as a partnership network where clients get good skills and freelancers get constant work. I never thought it like that but you could see it as a safety belt for freelancing. there is enough work worldwide, as long as you are able to get better rate than what I suggest, you don t need me, if you do please come back say hello, we see what we can do for you.


(Davask) #79

Last point, I was a webmaster, frontend dev, backend dev & I had a little bit of devops oriented ops.
I m now more of a project manager and try to be a team leader as much as possible but is that even possible when you work with freelancers :slight_smile:
So I am not completly out of my mind on what I do and it is less trying to put people in a box than trying to provide a solid ladder for people who are freelancing without much experience in freelancing as well as being a solid partner to more experience people


(Ionuț Staicu) #80

That’s very simple: Let’s say we have one developer that worked 10 years on same kind of projects with very little challenges or new stuff in them. Basically, she/he have one year of experience, repeated ten times.

Then another developer have 3 years of experience on unique projects, packed with new challenges and technologies.

Putting these two devs side by side, who do you think is more experienced in terms of skills & knowledge?